the Greater Nomadic Council

What a strange coincidence. I was just browsing their site when I came upon the link back to this site!

As for the article in question, it was published in the American Spectator, hardly a paragon of fair journalism. There is no question that anti-Americanism is on the rise in Germany. But only a moron would hold the Patriot Act on par with East German conditions (at least until Patriot Act II appears). This is not a widespread sentiment, as far as I can tell.

David's Medienkritik is a right-wing site. As you can see by looking at his comments, he caters to a largely low-denominator, Newsmax reading audience. That doesn't make his commentary less useful, but is rather something to keep in mind.

His commentary didn't really have anything to do with the article itself, other than the fact that he was passing it along. And I agree that the folks in that article are morons. However, you also made a post about a month back saying "this is how our allies see us"... remember? But now you're claiming that sort of view isn't that prevalent after all? Which is it?

All I'm saying is that considering America a fascist or police state is not as mainstream a view as the American Spectator article implies. The Stern article I linked to before was certainly a harsh and biased portrayal of America and corresponds to the way many Germans view America, but it was based on facts.

People like David tend to paint anti-Americanism as infantile and irrational and hence a sign of sickness and decadence. The truth is that while nobody likes to see anti-Americanism, there are both rational and irrational grounds for it. Certainly, the various irrational forms of anti-Americanism should be a discussion topic (and it is a big one among intellectuals in Germany). But to suggest the most hysterical forms of anti-Americanism are representative is analagous to suggesting that ANSWER was representative for the anti-war movement. In both cases, one hones in on the issue of fundamental loyalties rather than the actual arguments being presented, to the detriment of fair and rational discourse.

I realize this sounds a little silly, but one of the most common questions I get upon first meeting a German is "Do you think Kerry can beat Bush?" Certainly, there is a lot of cynicism over here about the strength of American democracy (the # of Americans who vote and the Florida fiasco are commonly cited) and the rise of American religious fundamentalism. Yet most Germans seem to believe, perhaps naively, that Bush's defeat will go a long way toward solving the most immediate problems facing the world today.

It's one thing to be against current American policies. It's another to be anti-American. I'm sure that considering the US a police state is not terribly common, but from various things I've read and my own conversations with Europeans (mainly French people) I believe there is a very real and unflattering misperception born of ignorance and prejudice.

I go to Germany every two months and I actually see a major trend toward being pro-Bush among the business people, both male and female. On my last trip, I met exactly zero anti-Bush people in Frankfurt and saw exactly zero "anti-war" posters. For many Germans, the war in Iraq lasted three weeks and it is now over...and they are aware of the media bias at Spiegel and Stern and Focus and N24. I live near San Francisco and I must say I find American liberals to be a thousand times more obnoxious...even when they are pro-war Kerry supporters who just like to zing the president for "incompetence" but agree that Saddam had to be removed.

Basically, I find Germans to be "inquisitive" about Bush and Iraq. They don't know what to think because they know their newspapers and magazines and TV News programs are sensationalist, if not biased. They look to successful, well-dressed Americans for guidance.

I let them know all 7 major reasons why Saddam had to go. They accept a well laid out explanation.

Bush's problem in the USA and Europe is that he somehow doesn't want to get his point across, even when he does say what needs to be said. His father was like that. The Bush's are always right, but don't explain themselves well. It is like they are too rich and blue-blooded to get themselves dirty talking about the details of history and current events and directly arguing with low level plebes like journalists and professors. When Tim Russert asked Bush about the Vietnam War...Bush was also "too careful". He didn't defend the SEATO protection of an innocent country from the Soviet and Chinese aggression that started big-time in 1965 conjoining with the Cultural Revolution in China. Bush just shook his head and said "that war was so political" and dodged the issue otherwise.

Reagan would have ripped the press a new orifice regarding the crimes the media committed against freedom in Southeast Asia with their biased, pro-communist reporting...especially during the Tet Offensive...which was a military victory for the free world...and should have been reported as such.

Then again, Reagan was widely hated by the European liberal press. Reagan was a great communicator...a great "explainer". It only made the liberal media in Europe hate him more. In fact, anti-Americanism was worse for me back in the Reagan era than it is now. Now, you get the conservative Eastern Europeans reminding the westerners about how Reagan saved Eastern Europe from communism while the western press complained.

Wow, where to begin...

The Bush's are always right, but don't explain themselves well.

If that is really your position, dialougue between us on Bush or our glorious victory in the Tet Offensive would serve little purpose. As for Reagan, while I grant you he was hated just as bitterly as Bush by the Left, I'm not convinced his negatives among ordinary Europeans were as strong as Bush's are today. After all, Germans did repeatedly reelect Helmet Kohl, who was a Reagan ally on crucial issues and almost equally despised.

I wonder if the possibility has occured to you that these "inquisitive" German businessmen are more interested in charming a "successful, well dressed American" like yourself then getting into a fruitless debate on the war. Seriously though, finding a German that could go toe to toe with a well informed American on the Iraq debate is not exactly common. It's even less common, if it is posssible, than finding well informed Americans.

By the way, Jennifer, I don't mean to be an ass, I just strongly disagree with your worldview. But it's always nice to have commentators who know what they are talking about.

"They don't know what to think because they know their newspapers and magazines and TV News programs are sensationalist, if not biased. They look to successful, well-dressed Americans for guidance."

Great line. This is why they hate us, people.

Welcome to the blog Jennifer. I hope our rabid liberals won't run you off.

I go to Germany every two months and I actually see a major trend toward being pro-Bush among the business people, both male and female. On my last trip, I met exactly zero anti-Bush people in Frankfurt and saw exactly zero "anti-war" posters. For many Germans, the war in Iraq lasted three weeks and it is now over...and they are aware of the media bias at Spiegel and Stern and Focus and N24. I live near San Francisco and I must say I find American liberals to be a thousand times more obnoxious...even when they are pro-war Kerry supporters who just like to zing the president for "incompetence" but agree that Saddam had to be removed.

I'm not surprised to hear of a pro-Bush bias amongst business people. We see the same thing here, after all. It is good to hear that anti-Americanism isn't as rampant over there as some would have us believe though.

As for finding American liberals "a thousand times more obnoxious", does this include all liberals or just the more extreme and vocal ones you're likely to encounter in California? Also, I don't think claiming Bush is incompetent to be a "zing", it's just the truth. Many conservative hawks now criticize Bush for exactly that. Are they just trying to zing him as well or do they honestly think his execution of the post-war reconstruction has been flawed from the start, a clear example of incompetence and poor planning?

Actually the extreme anti-American views are very very common. Some 30% of young people think 9/11 was a Bush plot for his "imperial" agenda.

This is not an exaggeration at all, and anyone who tells you it is has not been to Germany (or Europe) recently.

European anti-Americanism is increasingly vicious. September 11th seems to have tipped it over the edge into full-throttle hatred. Go figure. Normally massmurder would provoke sympathy, not this ugly European schadenfreude.

At this point, it seems almost inevitable that Europe will be an adversary of the US. Unfortunately the press in the US ignores the issue, and feeds people lies about European good will (like tropes about "sympathy" post-9/11, which were only what the media wanted to show). The reality is much more ominous, resembling something akin to the rising demonization of the Jews in the 1930s.

Beware....

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