the Greater Nomadic Council

I think the problem some people have with Cosby's remarks is two-fold. The tone is a bit condescending, which many don't take well; but moreover, he's directly addressing the culture of victimhood that has, unfortunately, infected a large number of the poor and poor blacks in particular. Again, most people don't enjoy honest criticism, especially when it's deserved.

Btw, my favorite record is "Why is there air?" I used to listen to that—and several others—over and over as a kid. Hilarity.

Cosby says the darndest things.

One line really cracked me up, somewhat guiltily - "Are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up?"

Unfortunately, it's also this little rant on style, as well as his derision towards "names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap" . . . and then his really flippant tone when suggesting that someone might be able to have sex with their grandmother - all of those are distracting from his substantive points. He is a comedian, granted, but this doesn't sound like he's trying to be funny, he's just raging. Of course, these are highlights taken out of context.

I can't say just where I stand on the issues at hand. I can't really explain why there's a party going on 24/7, all year, down the street from me, where the Nation of Islam, the gold tooth shop, and the liquor store are each on different corners of the same intersection. I'd say that part of it must be cultural - no group except American Indians has had such a dramatic failure to integrate since the '50s. It's actually quite sad to think of things like the Harlem Rennaissance, or some of the great turn-of-the-century black thinkers and leaders, about civil rights, about what was once a seemingly strong culture, and then think about what has happened in the last forty-odd years. I'm not surprised the Coz is beat up and pissed off.

Consider the gulf between DuBois's profound and eloquent writings and today's leading thinkers of the black community. In fact, who and where are they? I hope I'm just woefully ignorant (and that someone will correct me) in thinking that there really aren't any. Unfortunately, the real issue—socioeconomic disparity—is obscured by race. Cosby is really only speaking to a particular sub-population of those that suffer from the problems inherent in poverty, namely, poor education, teen pregnancy, drug use, and other social ills. Granted, it's a subset with a strong sense of community due to their race and Cosby is perfectly justified in speaking only to them and their unique problems, but it would be better to deal with the problems inherent in poverty. Improving education and wages for the lower class would help both the poor black community and the much larger group of the poor as a whole.

Of course there are black community leaders today, albeit most of them are addled by controversy, and suffer from overbearing public personalities. Clarence Thomas, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, that guy in Dallas, to name some I can think of. Also, not all sports stars are uneducated though children looking for role models might have a hard time making the distinction between the ones with & without.
The other issue, socioeconomic disparity, is a stickier issue. Of course subsidizing it hasn't worked, and pouring more money into it probably won't help either. I think there comes a time when you just have to deal with the fact that you were dealt a crappy hand, and try to change that. Like I said before Cosby did it for himself, so he definately has a platform to speak from. I feel the same about any race, as there are plenty of success stories to choose from. It all comes down to the choices you make, and how you deal with the setbacks. If anything I should be set up to fail more than the poor, because I have had it easy all my life and any setback should be likely to make me give up. Education should definitely be improved, and I think vouchers are a good solution right now for that problem.

That is a truly awesome speech.
Now if only some one would say to the Mexican community which, I sometimes think is a lot worse off than the Black community. Mexicans seem to think that there really is nothing wrong with us. Even tho most don't really know anything about our background and history.
Too many of us wearing Che and not even knowing what the man stood for, just that they saw him on a Rage Against the Machine video.
Oh well....

Of course there are black community leaders today, albeit most of them are addled by controversy, and suffer from overbearing public personalities. Clarence Thomas, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, that guy in Dallas, to name some I can think of.

I didn't mean to imply that there weren't *any* leaders, only that there aren't (or don't seem to be) any really comparably to DuBois, MLK, and others of that caliber. Poor phrasing on my part in order to make a point.

The other issue, socioeconomic disparity, is a stickier issue. Of course subsidizing it hasn't worked, and pouring more money into it probably won't help either. I think there comes a time when you just have to deal with the fact that you were dealt a crappy hand, and try to change that.

I agree that each individual needs to take a large amount of responsibility for their situation. That's one of Cosby's main points, I think. However, that doesn't excuse the government from repairing conditions that make it more difficult for people to do so. If, by "subsidizing it", you mean welfare, the evidence is pretty clear that Clinton's welfare reforms have, on the whole, been a good thing for the poor. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have anything available though. We just have to balance aid against enabling.

Like I said before Cosby did it for himself, so he definately has a platform to speak from. I feel the same about any race, as there are plenty of success stories to choose from.

And many, many more stories of failure. Anecdotes are not a good basis for policy.

Education should definitely be improved, and I think vouchers are a good solution right now for that problem.

I don't know what to think about vouchers. Do you have some good evidence for their efficacy? To me, it seems like you're essentially abandoning any effort to improve the worst schools while creating an even more entrenched underclass among those that don't opt to use vouchers. If we're going to spend money on public schools, we should be committed to doing it right. That means starting with bringing the worst schools and the worst teachers up to at least average. Education correlates very closely with poverty and all its attendant ills. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean that poor education causes poverty, but it seems likely that it, at the very least, reinforces those problems while making it more difficult to escape. Given that, education seems the best place to start reform. Of course, the minor tinkerings and ineffectual policies proposed to date are not going to do it. We need a pretty serious overhaul of the system starting with at least doubling teach salaries. That would allow us to get largely rid of the teacher's unions and base pay on merit while attracting a higher quality of teachers to the profession.

Obviously, there are a number of other problems plaguing the poor that must be addressed. The answers are not simple, but a working school system is paramount among them.

I thought you knew there were black leaders, I just thought you couldn't think of any at the moment. You are 100% correct on their caliber vs. yesteryear.

We just have to balance aid against enabling.

Again I agree, I am not for dumping welfare altogether I just think it needs more of a limit.(different discussion)

Anecdotes are not a good basis for policy

Of course they are not. Anecdotes are for inspiration, if nothing else it's something that tells you to keep going and it can be done. I'm not talking in a "hang in there" poster sense, or thinking that just because I know a story of a quadrapalegic who climbed Everest, that I CAN DO IT!!. I'm talking in feasible real world applications. Not every poor kid is going to grow up to be Cosby, but they can acheive comfort.

From what I have read about vouchers, they seem like a good idea, but I still want to do more reasearch before I make a final conclusion. They are not the end-all solution, but I think they could work interim, until the system gets reformed.

>I didn't mean to imply that there weren't *any* leaders, only that there aren't (or don't seem to be) any really comparably to DuBois, MLK, and others of that caliber. Poor phrasing on my part in order to make a point.

To make a risky statement, I think that a lot of people of MLKs caliber are nowadays able to participate in areas of society they were once excluded from, and while still interested in the struggle for equality, are maybe more busy being D.C. lawyers, mayors, Harvard profs, etc.

>Not every poor kid is going to grow up to be Cosby, but they can acheive comfort.

Not with things structured as they are. There just aren't enough good jobs available for every poor kid out there to get one. And, just in case this point even needs to be made, they're not all gonna become racecar drivers/rappers/basketball stars/country singers, either. In the longer term, it might never be possible to eliminate poverty, even if everyone were working, thanks to the downward pressure on wages exercised by (to pick an easy target) the Wal-Marts of the world. Education is the right place to start, but another pillar in the war on poverty must be strengthening of the union tradition to fight this sort of corporate money-grubbing.

>Cosby is really only speaking to a particular sub-population of those that suffer from the problems inherent in poverty, namely, poor education, teen pregnancy, drug use, and other social ills

I used to think there was something different, something particularly desperate or degraded, about black poverty. But holy shit, have I had it up to here with some of these white trash motherfuckers lately (particularly those in my own extended family, including a second cousin my age who has seven f'ing kids already). How does being poor these days (regardless of race) so thoroughly correlate to being an ignorant-ass, ill-behaved beast, unable to think your way out of a paper bag, instill even the vaguest sense of morality or decorum in your children, or put on a fucking rubber? (sorry for repeating Coz's rant, but this time it's for all God's people).

I'm reading through Studs Terkel's "Hard Times", and it's a portrait of a much, much different kind of poverty - poor people used to not just know how to read, but do a lot of it, and discuss politics, and organize for their rights, and police their own communities, all things that are almost unimaginable in today's poor communities, at least without substantial outside intervention.

To make a risky statement, I think that a lot of people of MLKs caliber are nowadays able to participate in areas of society they were once excluded from, and while still interested in the struggle for equality, are maybe more busy being D.C. lawyers, mayors, Harvard profs, etc.

Maybe so, maybe so. Maybe blacks have achieved enough equality so that the ones interested in leading are corrupt power-grubbers, just like whites and all the others.

In the longer term, it might never be possible to eliminate poverty, even if everyone were working, thanks to the downward pressure on wages exercised by (to pick an easy target) the Wal-Marts of the world. Education is the right place to start, but another pillar in the war on poverty must be strengthening of the union tradition to fight this sort of corporate money-grubbing.

I'm pretty sure it isn't possible to eliminate poverty. What you can do is minimize the number of poor while ensuring that even the poor are relatively well educated, have access to good, affordable health care, and live in a reasonably safe environment. "For ye have the poor with you always," but poor is relative. Compare our poorest people to those in, say, Africa.

I'm not so sure strengthening unions is the good you describe it to be. They'd have to be ridiculously strong to combat exploitative employers like Walmart, especially considering the pretty massive job pool they have to draw from. Government regulation seems like a better method, although maybe a combination of the two would be most effective at balancing worker's rights with robust economic growth and effective enforcement of the laws.

I used to think there was something different, something particularly desperate or degraded, about black poverty. But holy shit, have I had it up to here with some of these white trash motherfuckers lately (particularly those in my own extended family, including a second cousin my age who has seven f'ing kids already). How does being poor these days (regardless of race) so thoroughly correlate to being an ignorant-ass, ill-behaved beast, unable to think your way out of a paper bag, instill even the vaguest sense of morality or decorum in your children, or put on a fucking rubber? (sorry for repeating Coz's rant, but this time it's for all God's people).

There's a reason many people are poor: themselves. That said, there are things responsible leaders and lawmakers can and should do to improve the lives and ability to advance of the poor. As you point out, rampant ignorance is a large part of what keeps the poor that way. That, and downright stupidity.

But I'd better stop now. I feel a rant against all stupid and ignorant Americans coming on, unbounded by class considerations, unchecked by feelings of humanity. *grumble*buncha fuckin' morons in this country*grumble*need to learn how to drive*grumble**grumble*damn idiots can't use apostrophes right*grumble*

Whats you're problem with apostrophe's?

Apostrophes are lazy and shiftless. Theyll steal you blind soonern save you from drownin. Theyre worthless, no-good, lyin people if I ever seen um. I think we need to round up all the apostrophes and send em to California or some such decadent place.

Sorry to be so late in responding to you Manuel, but frankly your people are going to be running this fucking country (or at least the entire southwest) in another 20 years. Of course I'm sure there are problems unique to the Mexican-American community, and my experience is from outside of it, but as far as I can tell from my many, many Hispanic friends from a wide variety of backgrounds, the issues there are not necessarily different from those that face immigrant communities everywhere. I know this is a bold statement, and would welcome any rebuttal, but I think that racism against Latinos is fading in much the same way that racism against Irish and Italians did early in the 20th century. Maybe that's just Texas, though - California had that whole Prop 20 (?) thing, and I'm sure the further north you get, the less places are like extensions of Mexico, and the more you encounter racism.

Racism against Blacks, on the other hand, seems to have a truly demonic depth and intensity. I don't see it going away anytime soon (whether in its overt James Byrd form or in the sense of white kids' condescending wholesale co-option of black culture).

How does white kids embracing hip-hop count as condescension or racism? Isn't it exactly the opposite?